Odd Ideas

I read an interesting, and thought provoking, post on Jeff’s blog “Losing My Religion”. Jeff mentions a recent CNN article that discusses how America is “becoming less Christian”.

Please go read Jeff’s post about how our methods of “doing church” seem to having the “unintended effect of polarizing outsiders away from us instead of drawing them in. What we thought would increase our effectiveness and influence may actually be having the opposite effect.”

As I read Jeff’s blog post, I realized that I had seen this for myself while we were missionaries in Ukraine, and I have also had concerns of similar unintended effects (on a smaller scale) as a result of evangelism efforts here in Canada.

While in Ukraine, I saw many churches that had experienced explosive growth during the 90’s, and still heard stories of great “revivals” happening in parts of the country. As a Christian, who can be critical of that? That’s what I thought before I lived there for a while.

After a few months of living there, we got to know a number of people who were no longer part of the “big church” culture there, but who were living their lives to try to model the way of Jesus to the youth in their community. They were facing an uphill battle because, in their words, “many of these kids have already been to a local church, have repented, have said their prayers, and have been rejected by the churches”. The kids were equating God, and Jesus, with their experiences at the church. Now, they wanted nothing to do with God.

Yet, the churches keep thinking they are having success, as their numbers keep growing. But how many people are turning away because of those same “evangelistic” efforts? In my observation, the numbers of those turning away (either immediately or after negative experiences at church) are much higher than most people realize.

I think Jeff’s comment “Sounds almost as if we’ve been cutting down trees in an attempt to save the forest…” is very accurate.

As I posted a while ago, our local church here in Canada staged a production of “Heaven’s Gates, Hell’s Flames”… Go back and read my thoughts at the time if you want, but my concerns over that event are similar (not to mention my concern over the theology of the whole thing). Yes, there really are people who do change their lives for the better as a result of that production. I can’t deny that. What begins to concern me is the number of people who make “emotional” decisions after the production, but nothing really changes.

An even greater concern is the effect on people who see the production and decide that “if this is what God is really like, I want no part of it”. And they walk away from God, directly as a result of our well meaning but misdirected efforts at evangelism.

“Sounds almost as if we’ve been cutting down trees in an attempt to save the forest.”

Yes Jeff, we sure seem to be doing that…

A “re-post” of what I posted Feb 22 2009

Just thinking “out loud” here… Why is it that so many Christians have been “trained” not to ask questions? That somehow, asking questions automatically is the start of our slide down a slippery slope?

I have had several conversations with people over the past couple of weeks about what it means to follow Jesus, about what Jesus asked us to really do, and about some of the things that Christians seem to be obsessed about that Jesus didn’t even mention.

One conversation was on-line, on a message board where people were discussing “the afterlife”. I dropped in to read what people had written, and found that a young man from our church was supporting the “Christian” viewpoint on the board. So were a number of other people.

The disturbing thing to me was that there was an atheist on there who came across as sounding far more coherent and logical than many of the others, including his valid criticisms of Christianity. He was simply posting some true comments about the history of the Bible, and about some of the terrible things done in the name of Christianity through history, and how Christianity (including the beliefs) have dramatically changed over time. So what do we believe now? What really is true, and what isn’t? It was a good question.

The Christians were simply re-iterating (over and over) the same lines of belief, saying a prayer, going to church, all to avoid hell and end up in Heaven. Numerous scripture references were posted out of context to support their arguments.

I posted a few scriptures (see my earlier post about this) to show what Jesus actually said about who was “in” and who was “out”. I also commented that, as followers of Jesus, it wasn’t our job to decide who was a Christian and who wasn’t (since many on the board were trying to define that…).

The reply from one of the Christians? They used the same line I have heard many times before… a reference to Genesis 3:1…

Their response was “Does the line “Did God really say?” seem familiar?”

Somehow, this line is used to instill fear in Christians, because it is inferred that if you ever question a commonly held “Christian” belief, if you ever ask the question “Did God really say?”, you are now following the path of the serpent.

As a Christian, we never want to follow the path of the serpent. Or the path of Satan as it is then modified to mean (although Genesis doesn’t actually say the serpent was Satan).

So, we are always taught never to ask the question “Did God really say?”.

My response on the board? Yes, it does seem familiar. And yes, I am asking the question “Did God really say?” because I want to know that what I am doing, or believing, is something that God, or Jesus, really did say, and not just something invented by church or religion.

Another of my conversations was with a person from the church we have been attending. He stopped by to talk about other things, and somehow the conversation drifted towards some of the popular “evangelistic” messages and tools used in many churches, and how it just wasn’t working. This person already had reservations about the effectiveness of these methods (the typical “scare them out of hell so they want to go to heaven” methods), so I just added a bit of “fuel to the fire” by asking a few questions about what it was that Jesus really taught – about Hell, about following Jesus, about the “rapture” – and suggested he take another close look at the Bible.

He did admit that, for the past couple of years, he has “felt uncomfortable” with the current church situation, but also knew that simply going to a different church wouldn’t fix anything. He mentioned that, in some way, it felt like he was simply “putting in time” at the church until he could figure out what he needed to do.

He also mentioned that he knew a number of other people, at other churches, going through the same thing. Why?

These people want to follow Jesus. They are “still there” at the church. The problem is that they know their questions will not be deemed appropriate, and instead of actually addressing the questions, they will be told that they are wrong, that they need to “flee the enemy”, that they need to conform to the beliefs of the church.

They are not allowed to ask the question “Did God really say?” They don’t want to be associated with serpents.

Asking the question, “Did God really say?” is not really the problem.

The problem is when we know what God said and don’t listen!

We’ve managed to get it backwards – again.

Originally posted February 09th, 2009

Ok, I just have to “vent” a bit here.

I am sick and tired of hearing about the “Fireproof” movie already.

I haven’t seen the movie, nor do I want to. Just the fact that it has Kirk Cameron playing in it is enough to scare me away. His version of Christianity scares me.

From what I have heard, it is a movie about a firefighter (Cameron) and his wife. Their marriage is struggling, he is into internet porn, etc…. Then his father gives him a book and he starts to work on saving his marriage. According to the oft-repeated ads I hear on the radio here, “God gives him a new love for his wife”. That’s good. Where did the old one go?

Being the cynical person I am, I wonder what the movie makers would have done if the main character would have gone through all of this stuff – praying, following God, doing everything he was supposed to, but she rejected him anyway? In real life, that’s often what happens. Then what?

I hear on the radio ads about how many people were “impacted” by the movie, how the movie “blessed” somebody. The movies were shown in churches around here, and my guess is that most of the viewers were Christians. Yet they keep talking about it as if it was some great tool for evangelism.

Then again, the divorce rates for Christians are as high (or higher) than any other demographic, so maybe it’s not a bad thing. Hope it helped somebody!

I’m just sick of the ads!

Anybody reading this see the movie? What did you think?

Originally posted September 27th 2008

First of all… yes I’m still alive. Even though I haven’t posted in ages.

As we get settled in (whatever that means) to life here in Canada, it’s been busy with trying to find work, actually working, doing stuff with the kids, etc…

The whole “church thing” is still a frustration. No matter how we try, and how much we like the people at our church, we feel like we just “don’t fit”.

It seems that as our thinking continues to change after living for three years in Ukraine, working with orphans, and everything we have seen and experienced, the direction of our home church here is changing (or seems to be) in the opposite direction of ours. Maybe they aren’t changing but it just feels like that to us…

What is it that bugs us about church? One thing is the view of Evangelism.

I read a post today on a new blog called “Fallen off the Platform” that talks about the same concerns we have. Read it here.

In his post, the author says this:

“Where I’m from, the church will usually have a ’special’ night where you’re encouraged to bring along ANYONE you’ve ever clamped eyes on. Sometimes this’ll take the form of a ‘worship outreach’, or they’ll have a ’special speaker’ (y’know, the guy who’s life was a mess, who God made a huge success and he’s now a millionaire and tells all the right jokes with the perfect timing) or sometimes they’ll even have a film night or a drama production that depicts people dying and being faced with the reality of meeting the devil in hell or being welcomed into heaven and getting a big hug from the guy in a white robe with a stick on beard. (Who thought up this stuff? Can you hear them now…”That’s right…what a great idea…let’s scare folks into the Kingdom with eternal damnation, bad songs and sub-standard acting”) “

Well, it seems that our church has decided to do the same thing. In a few weeks, they are staging a production of “Heaven’s Gates & Hell’s Flames”. Personally, I’m not sure what to do with this. Seeing the big sign in front of the church makes me cringe! Yes, many people will likely come up and make a “decision”. They will decide to say a prayer so they can avoid hell. Is that the same as making a decision to follow Jesus for all of the good things He taught? Is that the same as making a decision to follow Jesus and sacrifice yourself for others?

Seems to me that these types of things simply help build a church full of Christians who are in it for what they can get (Heaven), and what they can avoid (Hell), instead of actually committing to living in the way Jesus did. That takes work, and sacrifice, and is more about what you can do for others than what you can get for yourself.

I’ve mentioned this before… I think Shane Claiborne was right when he said that following Jesus really messed up his life. Jesus does that to people!

But then again, it’s harder to fill up churches that way…

Originally posted August 16th, 2008

I used to think this was something that “really good Christians” did. I have different ideas now.

I was forwarded this e-mail “invitation” (or whatever it is) by a friend looking for my opinion. It was originally from a group of people looking for “Levitical Worshippers” (hey, I’ve got a worship theme going two posts in a row!).

Seems that they are into getting people to go to these all night prayer and worship events, having designated locations for constant worship, etc… Although it might not be for everybody, how can I (or anybody else) find fault in this?

I think their intentions are good, they want to “seek God”, but maybe they are missing the point. Just a little. Or maybe a bit more than a little.

The way the “invitation” is worded, it sounds like a very strong, and Biblical, reasoning for doing this. Kind of makes you think that the people who do this are some kind of “Super Christians”, somehow set apart to worship God. The modern Levites themselves!
The top of the e-mail quotes Leviticus 6:12 “The fire must be kept burning on the altar continuously. It must not go out.”

Guess what? That IS what it says in Leviticus! But, I wonder, what does that have to do with prayer and worship in our context?

The “fire” in this scripture is a literal fire, that a specific group of people at a specific point in time were told to tend. Trying to take this verse and apply it to something else, with a different group of people at a different time in a different culture, and a different religion just doesn’t make sense! Anyway… back to the e-mail.

At that time Yahweh set apart the tribe of Levi
to carry the ark of the covenant of Yahweh
to stand before Yahweh to minister to him
and to bless in his name, to this day.
(Deut. 10:8)

This is the next biblical quote in the e-mail. Again, this is referring to the tribe of Levi… a specific tribe of Israel. The words “to this day” seem to me to refer to the time that the book of Deuteronomy was written. Interesting history, good to read and understand, but doesn’t necessarily apply to us, now, in Canada. What this has to do with Canadians (or whoever) going to all night prayer and worship in a non-Jewish culture is beyond me!
And – if it does apply to us (let’s give it the benefit of the doubt) – how do we “minister” to Yahweh (God)? What did Jesus say? “What you have done to the least of these, you have done to me.” Want to minister to God? Go minister to “the least of these”!

Standing in a room with a pile of other Christians and yelling, crying and screaming at God about stuff He already knows must be pretty insulting to God. At least the God I know.

These people need to get their heads out of the sand. This is the very reason we DON’T see a revival, because they are too busy hiding out in “Christian” gatherings, thinking that they are the chosen ones who will bring revival.

Jesus never told us to do that. Jesus said we are all equals. Nobody is more “chosen” than anybody else. Why do Christians waste their time on stuff that Jesus never bothered with?

Easy answer? Because if you create these clubs and gatherings of “super Christians”, you can pat each other on the back as to how good of a Christian you are, and wouldn’t it be nice if the world would just “get it”…

Going out and doing what Jesus told us to do is hard, and it isn’t fun, and you might have to actually develop friendships (real ones – not just “pretend friendships” so they will come to church), and the leaders of the churches won’t like you (just like the Pharisees didn’t like Jesus).

Real revival will start, one person at a time, when Christians get OUT of the church and their private clubs and start loving and helping people, and stop thinking that they are somehow better or “chosen” because they go to all night prayer meetings.

Ok… I think I feel better now!

Originally posted July 30th, 2008

A friend of mine, Steve Hill, has a great post on his site discussing the effectiveness of evangelism campaigns and “revivals” (Todd Bentley et.al.), written from the point of view of somebody who has been on both sides of the story.

As Steve says, we need to “question everything”!

Read his post here.

Originally posted April 08th, 2008

Let’s see if I can bring this dead blog back to life…

Life has been, to put it mildly, a bit tumultuous for our family the past few months. With trying to get organized to move back to Canada from Ukraine (it’s a LOT more difficult logistically in this direction), trying to ensure some type of continuity for the help to the orphans here, etc… I haven’t much time, or ambition, to read many blogs, let alone write anything.

But… this morning, reading through some blogs for the first time in a long time, I stumbled across a “synchroblog” that happened yesterday, started by Glenn Hager, simply titled “Revolutionaries Synchroblog”.

It caught my eye – for a number of reasons.

First – a couple of months ago as I was having a discussion with a pastor and a few other people from a church here, and talking about some of my thoughts, they called me “a revolutionary”. Never thought of myself that way, and it felt uncomfortable, but if the shoe fits…

Just watched a video a couple of days ago about Martin Luther. What struck me was how revolutionary his ideas were at the time – and how necessary…

Talking with my wife later, thinking about how Jesus interacted with the religious leaders of his day, he was certainly a revolutionary…

So – I guess it’s not necessarily a bad thing to be considered a revolutionary.

I just never thought I could even be hinted as being one. I have always wanted to be a “good Christian”, do what’s right, follow Jesus, and all of those things I learned in Sunday School.

The problem is that in following Jesus, I have ended up in a foreign country as a “missionary” (whatever that means), ended up questioning almost everything I grew up learning in church, while at the same time seeing a completely different way of following Jesus – to the extent that what I “knew” before now seems to make no sense at all.

What do I do with this?

How do I reconcile the fact that I simply want to follow Jesus in helping the orphans and other people here, but in doing so end up in opposition to “Christianity” as practised by the churches?

I find myself being so cynical about the supposed “help” being provided by foreign missions organizations. I see that many of the local churches are more about “empire building” than following Jesus. I see the huge waste of money and effort in so many things that happen. I see the people with not enough food, with no hope, and the churches simply don’t care enough to change things – while at the same time building bigger buildings, with better sound systems, with money contributed by well meaning people in other countries.

How do I help without tearing down?

At what point do we stop accepting the status quo – in hopes that things will improve, and instead confront the authority figures as Jesus did, as Luther did, and become revolutionaries?

How do we deal with the realization that if we talk truthfully about what we have seen and heard, many people will be upset, “ministries” will be affected, the movement of “support money” could be restricted to certain people?

How do we know we are doing what is right?

I don’t want to be a rebel for the sake of being a rebel, but I do want to be true to what Jesus calls me to do.

Originally posted May 18th, 2007

Last Sunday I visited one of the larger charismatic churches in this city. I was helping a friend shoot some video of a drama that was being presented for the first time.

Another friend of mine (her first time at this church) was talking to me as the three hour service was nearing the end. She had a perplexed look on her face as she looked at the hundreds of people. I asked her what she was thinking…

Her reply? “Why do all these people come here? What is the point?”

I understood where she was coming from… She is involved in a ministry to the youth of this city, they are followers of Jesus, but they don’t “go to church”. They are reaching out to hundreds of teenagers who would never set foot in a church.

In comparison, the whole three hour church service last Sunday was essentially a service for Christians. Lots of praise music. Lots of loud praying (with the pastor actually asking the sound guy to turn his microphone up so he can be heard over the crowd during the prayer), a drama that reminded the Christians about the dangers of “the world”, etc…

As far as I could tell, there didn’t seem to be much that would make any sense to a “non-believer” (as they call anybody who isn’t a “believer” and part of the church crowd). On the other hand, they sure did present a strong case for “Christians” to fear the world.

Maybe this is why so few Christians here have any non-Christian friends?

Maybe this “fear factor” is part of the reason why all churches are viewed by the general public here as being cults or sects?

Seems that somewhere along the line the churches have missed the point…